Thanks for this, Peter! This was a really thoughtful analysis that speaks to many of my concerns about Substack. Sent you a few bucks for coffee.
When it was just an email platform, I thought their hands off approach to moderation was defensible and maybe even a way to build a better internet. Maybe. But then they launched a social network and here we are.
On the free speech topic, I find it fascinating that so many people on Substack parrot the party line about free speech without ever bothering to read Substack's content policy, which bans a lot of speech, including porn and advertising (sorry, Coke, no free speech for you). I know, I know people don't bother to read that stuff, but when you point it out to them on Notes, holy shit do they lose their minds and yell free speech even louder.
By the way, porn and Substack are an interesting combo, at least for me. In January, I wrote about going to a porn convention. The piece was featured in Substack Reads. It got a lot of comments. Many of them were good, but a lot of them were really mad at Substack for going anywhere near porn. Big surprise: a lot of the accounts yelling at Substack and me about that article were the same ones shouting free speech on Notes last week. One thing I always tell people when they call themselves a free speech absolutist is to try defending two types of objectionable speech. Personally, I think it's a weird life choice to rush out to defend hate speech, but if you can't be bothered to defend, say, porn at the same time, how committed to free speech are you really?
One last point. What you said about the Substack brand at the end is spot on. That's the thing that'll ultimately drive me away. I can't say, "check out my work on Substack" and have people think, "why is he writing on the Nazi site?"
I hate admitting this but I was encouraged to join OnlyFans because “not everyone on here does porn!” And as the author noted “yer kidding ya self!”, which in retrospect I was.
I have no moral argument against porn, but I struggled valiantly with the communication I’d receive in the DMs asking me to “flash it” for $5 as well as having to defend myself on other platforms when I was trying to promote my content on OF. “Have you even seen it?” I’d ask indignantly.
Yet what did I expect? That’s what the site is known for, fairly or not, and my army of one wasn’t going to single handedly change that.
The OP also makes the simple point that had until now eluded me, that it’s a slippery slope AND the problem is with capitalism.
Others have made similar points such as “you can have free speech but the other person has freedom to choose not to like it and switch you off”.
Thanks for your comment. I’m really enjoying this article and the comment section too.
I’ve only just joined Substack and I feel like I’ve joined the world of the grown ups.
The writing along with the ideas and deep thinking is superb and I’m fortunate to be on vacation so I can spend all day here in my pyjamas like a little kid being excited and delighted by this new world I’ve found. Cheers 🕊️
You've already gotten a lot of praise on the high brow appeal of this wonderful piece, but I wanted to take a moment to celebrate this absolute gem of low brow lo hanging fruit:
"There is a window of time in which porn is interesting to look at, but that window tends to only last a few minutes before ending abruptly."
Your problem is my problem: "find me at the Nazi site." And let's not forget that credit card networks like Stripe kicked at least a few of these users off their systems, so Substack isn't just hosting their speech. They're helping them raise funds.
I read all of the comments on this post (and missed my goddamned bus) -- but FdB’s is the only one that best addresses (and neutralizes) all of the hysteria related to the existential torture related to the 6 or so Nazi stacks malingering on the fringes of SS.
I’ve been on SS for over 3 years and was never once accosted by any of this goofball shit. If I had I’d of just scrolled on by. It’s tedious and mind-numbing.
It wasn’t until the tattletale-ing Atlantic got all up in their own asses over this shit that it became a hot ‘viral’ topic.
Interestingly, both Atlantic writers who took this moral crusade on, have very large followings on Twitter, a shithole platform with a genuine Nazi problem. Both of their accounts are active and throbbing. 😩
Are they raising funds to break the non-aggression pact they signed with the Soviet Union so they can invade Poland? Or send funds to Japan to support the South Pacific front?
Kitty Kat, honey. The Nazis existed BEFORE WWII started. They had a whole rise to power and everything. Maybe read a lil history written by a sane person.
I had such trouble forming words about how I felt and this was a good read to crystallize a lot of it. The main point is that the liquid always flows. They will say what they like and I don’t go over there, but somehow they end up in my space and that’s always been the problem. We are protecting offensive people who have a propensity to indoctrinate and colonize areas. They run people off platforms.
I just want to say what I want as well and have the same applause, the same protection. If I want to talk about the dangers of misogyny among boys, Chris Best better clutch that free speech protection to his breast when I’m talking. Keep that energy for the people who are marginalized in these spaces.
Most people don't think that. You are in the top 1% when it comes to Internet brain. NORMIES DO NOT KNOW ABOUT ANY OF THIS AND THEY DO NOT CARE. You people desperately need to interact with someone outside of the most Twitter poisoned decile of society.
It’s more niche than I expected despite people having very strong ideas about it.
Probably like not knowing how aeroplanes actually stay up in the sky but just expecting them to because that’s someone’s job.
Fortunately we live in a world with many diverse interests and we might be lucky enough to be in an industry that we’re passionate about as well as earning money from it.
Thanks for your comment, I’ll keep it in mind when I see people’s eyes glaze over as I’m devotedly campaigning for free speech.
I was appalled by the middle school locker room "humor" when I first joined BlueSky. I blocked a lot. Then I muted posts with certain words in them. My experience now is much better. I accept that any social network will have posters I don't want to see. Some central moderation is essential (acknowledging that boundaries are often debatable), but as long as I have tools to control my feed (block, muted, lists), I'm OK.
But when you keep getting hit up for dates? Click here to watch my show, my only fans page...
Time to move on people, great photos, recipes, ect ect can never make up for that content, I assure you , if I wanted pornigraphy , im sure google would happily direct me to .........
I haven't made up my mind on this topic. I came here expecting to disagree. However, you've brought up points worthy of consideration.
I was concerned about coming to Substack because there is so much politics. Both parties suck, but most people cheer for their team of trash.
Yet the emphasis on free speech attracted me because I'm tired of wasting my time dealing with censorship. It regularly becomes too much. I don't open Facebook. Too many people I know trying to lose my respect.
I believe the social network is the issue, but it's also one of the best ways for Substack to drive growth. It would certainly help if substack had a "shit filter". One the reader can swap back and forth. No garbage / all posters / only trash.
Just let me scroll the feed to explore notes while excluding every account that with more than 15 mentions of Biden or Trump across their last 5 articles. It can just be a rolling count. It would help readers find what interests them.
Well, I guess I just offended a huge batch of the authors who can't sell anything but impotent rage against the other team and endlessly worshipping their own dumbass idols.
This is a great analysis--and you use the exact same example I've tried to get across in similar, less articulate, ways, which is Reddit. Substack is 100% unready for whatever its version of brigading will look like and being 100% unready is a 100% guarantee that it will happen at some point.
Is Substack a Nazi site? I see a lot of people complaining about Nazis but I don't see any Nazis. As far as I can tell there's a variety of viewpoints (on Gaza, for instance). In this way, Substack mirrors society at large, which is at it should be.
Having long considered conversations about this topic will hopefully encourage the creators to continue to explore filters to make the experience of being here more enjoyable for everyone involved.
“Just scroll on!”, or in the case of trolls, “just delete them! Ignore them! Who cares what other people think?”
Yes yes of course, but as you point out, it gets exhausting wading through the soft sand to get anywhere.
Challenging oneself to do something difficult is always good for us but not all day everyday. It’s doable but that’s not really the aim of our human endeavour.
Constant struggle isn’t the answer for everyone with all things either. That’s why we have weekends off. To enjoy the fruits of our labour. Cheers 🕊️
I’ll admit i am falling more on the free speech side of these conversations, but your question “will i hang out here if...” is a cogent one and worth considering. Well written, i liked it.
My own concerns are rooted around the “identifying nazis” problem, and the tendencies of progressive pitchforks in the face of anything resembling right wing dissent to progressive sacred cows. Ive seen people being accused of being Nazis who very much should not be - so the question becomes.
“Who is a Nazi?” In this. Cause i dont think there is universal agreement on what that means and thats a whole different slippery slope. And why i dont really trust the censorship crowd to make those calls.
Of all the hard problems in social media, “what is a Nazi?” is not one of them. It’s more like the easy peasy problem. “Do they use Nazi language and imagery and talk admiringly about how Nazis eliminated ethnic groups they hated?”
That’s a Nazi.
Do they write about how Hitler was right and the wrong side won WWII?
Again, a Nazi.
Do they call for the extermination of groups the Nazis hated?
You make it sound so easy, yet I see people throw around that word "Nazi" into people's faces who aren't doing things you say defines a Nazi.
It's easy *for you* to define a Nazi.
I personally feel pretty confident in my ability to identify a Nazi.
I lack confidence in a lot of people's ability to differentiate between a "Nazi" and a "Right wing conservative whose opinions they dislike." Simply disagreeing with the notion that we should have strict moderation on this platform has earned a *number* of writers on here sarcastic and cruel "You're a Nazi, admit it" style comments.
It's clear to me there's nothing *simple* about this.
I've seen a lot of "ugly Nazi sweaters" thrust on people who didn't deserve it.
Frankly I think Nazi gets as mis-used as "woke communists" and I lump the accusative into the same category of nonsense 99 times out of a 100.
Thanks for this, Peter! This was a really thoughtful analysis that speaks to many of my concerns about Substack. Sent you a few bucks for coffee.
When it was just an email platform, I thought their hands off approach to moderation was defensible and maybe even a way to build a better internet. Maybe. But then they launched a social network and here we are.
On the free speech topic, I find it fascinating that so many people on Substack parrot the party line about free speech without ever bothering to read Substack's content policy, which bans a lot of speech, including porn and advertising (sorry, Coke, no free speech for you). I know, I know people don't bother to read that stuff, but when you point it out to them on Notes, holy shit do they lose their minds and yell free speech even louder.
By the way, porn and Substack are an interesting combo, at least for me. In January, I wrote about going to a porn convention. The piece was featured in Substack Reads. It got a lot of comments. Many of them were good, but a lot of them were really mad at Substack for going anywhere near porn. Big surprise: a lot of the accounts yelling at Substack and me about that article were the same ones shouting free speech on Notes last week. One thing I always tell people when they call themselves a free speech absolutist is to try defending two types of objectionable speech. Personally, I think it's a weird life choice to rush out to defend hate speech, but if you can't be bothered to defend, say, porn at the same time, how committed to free speech are you really?
One last point. What you said about the Substack brand at the end is spot on. That's the thing that'll ultimately drive me away. I can't say, "check out my work on Substack" and have people think, "why is he writing on the Nazi site?"
Thanks man, I appreciate it!
Your article came to mind while I read this, Michael.
I hate admitting this but I was encouraged to join OnlyFans because “not everyone on here does porn!” And as the author noted “yer kidding ya self!”, which in retrospect I was.
I have no moral argument against porn, but I struggled valiantly with the communication I’d receive in the DMs asking me to “flash it” for $5 as well as having to defend myself on other platforms when I was trying to promote my content on OF. “Have you even seen it?” I’d ask indignantly.
Yet what did I expect? That’s what the site is known for, fairly or not, and my army of one wasn’t going to single handedly change that.
The OP also makes the simple point that had until now eluded me, that it’s a slippery slope AND the problem is with capitalism.
Others have made similar points such as “you can have free speech but the other person has freedom to choose not to like it and switch you off”.
Thanks for your comment. I’m really enjoying this article and the comment section too.
I’ve only just joined Substack and I feel like I’ve joined the world of the grown ups.
The writing along with the ideas and deep thinking is superb and I’m fortunate to be on vacation so I can spend all day here in my pyjamas like a little kid being excited and delighted by this new world I’ve found. Cheers 🕊️
You've already gotten a lot of praise on the high brow appeal of this wonderful piece, but I wanted to take a moment to celebrate this absolute gem of low brow lo hanging fruit:
"There is a window of time in which porn is interesting to look at, but that window tends to only last a few minutes before ending abruptly."
😗👌
Thank you - I cut my teeth writing for crass outlets, it always finds its way in there
I follow a lot of the cracked diaspora. I know how horny y'all are.
Horny on Main was delightful.
Yeah I was chuckling at this 🍆
Your problem is my problem: "find me at the Nazi site." And let's not forget that credit card networks like Stripe kicked at least a few of these users off their systems, so Substack isn't just hosting their speech. They're helping them raise funds.
oh my god, your trials and tribulations, it's like something from the book of Job
I read all of the comments on this post (and missed my goddamned bus) -- but FdB’s is the only one that best addresses (and neutralizes) all of the hysteria related to the existential torture related to the 6 or so Nazi stacks malingering on the fringes of SS.
I’ve been on SS for over 3 years and was never once accosted by any of this goofball shit. If I had I’d of just scrolled on by. It’s tedious and mind-numbing.
It wasn’t until the tattletale-ing Atlantic got all up in their own asses over this shit that it became a hot ‘viral’ topic.
Interestingly, both Atlantic writers who took this moral crusade on, have very large followings on Twitter, a shithole platform with a genuine Nazi problem. Both of their accounts are active and throbbing. 😩
Are they raising funds to break the non-aggression pact they signed with the Soviet Union so they can invade Poland? Or send funds to Japan to support the South Pacific front?
You people are morons.
Kitty Kat, honey. The Nazis existed BEFORE WWII started. They had a whole rise to power and everything. Maybe read a lil history written by a sane person.
Exactly. And...one of the examples of the problem quite nicely showed up to illustrate the issue. She's blocked.
I had such trouble forming words about how I felt and this was a good read to crystallize a lot of it. The main point is that the liquid always flows. They will say what they like and I don’t go over there, but somehow they end up in my space and that’s always been the problem. We are protecting offensive people who have a propensity to indoctrinate and colonize areas. They run people off platforms.
I just want to say what I want as well and have the same applause, the same protection. If I want to talk about the dangers of misogyny among boys, Chris Best better clutch that free speech protection to his breast when I’m talking. Keep that energy for the people who are marginalized in these spaces.
"And an ever increasing number of people are going to see my link and think… this guy writes for that Nazi site."
This. This right here. This is one of the problems that I don't think Substack has properly thought through as a business.
Most people don't think that. You are in the top 1% when it comes to Internet brain. NORMIES DO NOT KNOW ABOUT ANY OF THIS AND THEY DO NOT CARE. You people desperately need to interact with someone outside of the most Twitter poisoned decile of society.
It’s more niche than I expected despite people having very strong ideas about it.
Probably like not knowing how aeroplanes actually stay up in the sky but just expecting them to because that’s someone’s job.
Fortunately we live in a world with many diverse interests and we might be lucky enough to be in an industry that we’re passionate about as well as earning money from it.
Thanks for your comment, I’ll keep it in mind when I see people’s eyes glaze over as I’m devotedly campaigning for free speech.
This is a great piece. 👍
That means a lot to me coming from you, thank you
You're quite welcome!
I was appalled by the middle school locker room "humor" when I first joined BlueSky. I blocked a lot. Then I muted posts with certain words in them. My experience now is much better. I accept that any social network will have posters I don't want to see. Some central moderation is essential (acknowledging that boundaries are often debatable), but as long as I have tools to control my feed (block, muted, lists), I'm OK.
Thanks for this. It’s a great tip and I’m going to use it going forward.
Great Article
Reminds me why I turned off Tumblr.
I love photography, cooking, art, politics .....
But when you keep getting hit up for dates? Click here to watch my show, my only fans page...
Time to move on people, great photos, recipes, ect ect can never make up for that content, I assure you , if I wanted pornigraphy , im sure google would happily direct me to .........
As a cook, I like the sauce analogy, especially Elon's sauce breaking 😄
Great read, thank you Peter. You elucidate the issue in an erudite manner, and provid so much food for thought. Thank you
I haven't made up my mind on this topic. I came here expecting to disagree. However, you've brought up points worthy of consideration.
I was concerned about coming to Substack because there is so much politics. Both parties suck, but most people cheer for their team of trash.
Yet the emphasis on free speech attracted me because I'm tired of wasting my time dealing with censorship. It regularly becomes too much. I don't open Facebook. Too many people I know trying to lose my respect.
I believe the social network is the issue, but it's also one of the best ways for Substack to drive growth. It would certainly help if substack had a "shit filter". One the reader can swap back and forth. No garbage / all posters / only trash.
Just let me scroll the feed to explore notes while excluding every account that with more than 15 mentions of Biden or Trump across their last 5 articles. It can just be a rolling count. It would help readers find what interests them.
Well, I guess I just offended a huge batch of the authors who can't sell anything but impotent rage against the other team and endlessly worshipping their own dumbass idols.
"I came here expecting to disagree. However, you've brought up points worthy of consideration. "
Honestly one of my favourite things to hear.
“Too many people I know trying to lose my respect” 😂👏🏼🏆
This is a great analysis--and you use the exact same example I've tried to get across in similar, less articulate, ways, which is Reddit. Substack is 100% unready for whatever its version of brigading will look like and being 100% unready is a 100% guarantee that it will happen at some point.
Is Substack a Nazi site? I see a lot of people complaining about Nazis but I don't see any Nazis. As far as I can tell there's a variety of viewpoints (on Gaza, for instance). In this way, Substack mirrors society at large, which is at it should be.
Thank you for writing such a great article.
Having long considered conversations about this topic will hopefully encourage the creators to continue to explore filters to make the experience of being here more enjoyable for everyone involved.
“Just scroll on!”, or in the case of trolls, “just delete them! Ignore them! Who cares what other people think?”
Yes yes of course, but as you point out, it gets exhausting wading through the soft sand to get anywhere.
Challenging oneself to do something difficult is always good for us but not all day everyday. It’s doable but that’s not really the aim of our human endeavour.
Constant struggle isn’t the answer for everyone with all things either. That’s why we have weekends off. To enjoy the fruits of our labour. Cheers 🕊️
I genuinely remember the last time I read something so fundamentally morally confused
Honey: the problem is that a lot of people believe this stuff, and you can't stop them from believing it with the terms of service
I’ll admit i am falling more on the free speech side of these conversations, but your question “will i hang out here if...” is a cogent one and worth considering. Well written, i liked it.
My own concerns are rooted around the “identifying nazis” problem, and the tendencies of progressive pitchforks in the face of anything resembling right wing dissent to progressive sacred cows. Ive seen people being accused of being Nazis who very much should not be - so the question becomes.
“Who is a Nazi?” In this. Cause i dont think there is universal agreement on what that means and thats a whole different slippery slope. And why i dont really trust the censorship crowd to make those calls.
Of all the hard problems in social media, “what is a Nazi?” is not one of them. It’s more like the easy peasy problem. “Do they use Nazi language and imagery and talk admiringly about how Nazis eliminated ethnic groups they hated?”
That’s a Nazi.
Do they write about how Hitler was right and the wrong side won WWII?
Again, a Nazi.
Do they call for the extermination of groups the Nazis hated?
Nazi.
What part of this do you find difficult?
You make it sound so easy, yet I see people throw around that word "Nazi" into people's faces who aren't doing things you say defines a Nazi.
It's easy *for you* to define a Nazi.
I personally feel pretty confident in my ability to identify a Nazi.
I lack confidence in a lot of people's ability to differentiate between a "Nazi" and a "Right wing conservative whose opinions they dislike." Simply disagreeing with the notion that we should have strict moderation on this platform has earned a *number* of writers on here sarcastic and cruel "You're a Nazi, admit it" style comments.
It's clear to me there's nothing *simple* about this.
I've seen a lot of "ugly Nazi sweaters" thrust on people who didn't deserve it.
Frankly I think Nazi gets as mis-used as "woke communists" and I lump the accusative into the same category of nonsense 99 times out of a 100.